Chuck, a conservative civil engineer, and Mike, a liberal activist who became Seattle's mayor, talk about the politics of growth and the trap it creates for cities. Chuck concluded that his work, and our grand auto experiment, was destroying the financial sustainability of our places. He started writing about it, which turned into "Strong Towns" a movement to return to traditional development patterns. Not for the environment or livability, but because it is the only way that makes financial sense. Mike and Chuck talk about how bad laws and public concerns with growth prevent traditional development. And that planners, politicians and the growth coalition aren't solving our problems - they're just pushing more cities to the fate of Detroit.